Today’s guest is Derek Handley. Derek is the Co-Founder and Managing Partner of Aera VC. Prior to starting Aera, Derek spent 10 years founding and growing an early mobile-phone tech company, The Hyperfactory, which exited to Meredith Corporation/Time Inc. Following that alongside Sir Richard Branson, Derek was the Founding CEO of The B Team.
In this episode Derek takes us through his journey, how he weaves his various interests together into investing out of Aera VC and what it is like to be an astronaut in waiting.
Today’s guest is Derek Handley. Derek is the Co-Founder and Managing Partner of Aera VC. Prior to starting Aera, Derek spent 10 years founding and growing an early mobile-phone tech company, The Hyperfactory, which exited to Meredith Corporation/Time Inc. Following that alongside Sir Richard Branson, Derek was the Founding CEO of The B Team.
In this episode Derek takes us through his journey, how he weaves his various interests together into investing out of Aera VC and what it is like to be an astronaut in waiting.
Today's guest is Derek Handley. He is a futurist entrepreneur and an aspiring civilian astronaut signed up to visit space with Virgin Galactic. Derek created the Aera Foundation in 2014 as a charitable studio, catalyzing social innovations to reframe the status quo for a sustainable future. Prior to establishing Aera, Derek spent 10 years founding and growing an early mobile phone tech company, The Hyperfactory, which exited to Meredith Corporation Time. Following that, alongside Sir Richard Branson, Derek was the founding CEO of the B team. Derek is currently studying towards a master's in religion at Harvard and lives in New Zealand with his family. Welcome, Derek.
Lieke 1:26
Yeah, so let's just kick it off with the first question. Derek, your background is really impressive. You've lived in some really cool places from Hong Kong to New York to New Zealand, where you're from, and you've been hugely successful, building your own business, The Hyperfactory, and also starting a company with Richard Branson could just tell us a little bit about your life experience.
Derek Handley 1:51
Yes, that's a pretty open question. Also, you didn’t mention during the opening that obviously at the moment, I'm building Aera VC fund. So I think a lot of things that I'm doing now have been built up over the years of being exposed to and experiencing lots of different things.
I think, you know, starting at universities deciding I wanted to be an architect or be in business, I couldn't quite figure it out. So I studied both. And eventually, I think the last 20 years has been a kind of hybrid of the two all the way. You know how to design and architect different interesting things. Sometimes that's the company, sometimes that's a nonprofit, or a campaign, sometimes it's just a concept or a community. And so I think in the last 20 years I have been constantly experimenting in architecting, and designing new ways to hopefully make a difference and improve things in the world. And as you kind of touched on, part of it has been company building, I've helped start and started lots of different companies around the world. Then it switched to really having a very strong focus on sustainability, and trying to understand what are the challenges that we have for our generation. And that happened to me about 10 years ago, when I had kind of stumbled on that question about how I wanted to spend my life. So for the last 10 years, I've just been finding new and different ways to do that, at the moment, front and center, the thing that takes the most kind of visible expression of that is investing in entrepreneurs that are trying to solve some of those challenges that we've got, that will also be able to create, you know, fascinating companies.
Elizabeth Gapes 3:35
Sure, and Derek, you know, you spoke about investing in entrepreneurs. And you've also touched on, you know, saying that you're keeping yourself extremely busy with, you know, a lot of other activities, like studying religion at Harvard, also running your own podcast, Wiser Conversations and in your fund your fund activities with era. Can you tie all of those facets together for me? How about those other things that you do in your life help you in your quest to find and invest in entrepreneurs?
Derek Handley 4:08
Yeah, I think all of the things that I work on stem from a similar kind of place, which is my passion and interest around how do you design a life that really expresses who you are and is the fullest representation of the person that you're, you've been brought to become. So my fascination and study of theology and religion is around a desire to look at how that has been presented and explored and kind of cradled for people over the last millennia. And you know, dozens of centuries where people look for answers as to what they are here for? What are they trying to achieve? What does it all mean? What kind of life do you want to build with this kind of short finite time that you've got, as far as we know, you know, on planet Earth. And that is a strange thing to maybe connect to being an entrepreneur or being a fund investor. But as a founder, I always felt that next to artists, I had as much freedom creatively, to produce and express something and bring it to life in the world, then, you know, almost any other kind of job.
And that expression, you know, people always talk about an artist, they just want to express what's inside of them and bring it out into the world. And we give artists license to do that. And we don't ever question it, and you kind of look at it, and you're inspired, and you're in awe.
I think founders and entrepreneurs have a similar capacity to bring something new into the world. And a lot of people might not understand it, but their conviction will eventually bring it to fruition or otherwise. And so I really enjoyed that part of building things and building companies. And so being an investor and backing entrepreneurs at this particular time is also really important and fascinating, because the challenges that they're trying to solve, especially the ones we back with regards to climate and sustainability issues are not only important and meaningful for those individuals, and the the path that they want to carve, and the person that they want to become, but they are also really important for society.
So as a fund, you have the privilege to invest in people, you're investing in their dreams, you're investing in them, trying to embody and, and express the fullest extent of what they feel they're here to do with their time at this particular moment in their lives. So, to me, all those things kind of string together. And one day, I could be doing one thing. And as you said, interviewing someone on Wiser, the next day I could be studying and investing. To me, it all feels part of the same dance.
Lieke 6:57
Yeah, I think it sounds beautiful when you speak about investing in people's dreams and that your passion is really to design a life that expresses who you are. But I can imagine it's not always that much in line with each other. So have you, for example, ever been in a situation where your moral position and values have been in conflict with a financial or business decision?
Derek Handley 7:22
Well, that was really more common in my first half, you know, the first 10 or so years where, at the beginning, I just wanted to build a company and prove something and make something new that the world hadn't seen maybe before. And, you know, towards the end of that journey, I started to realize that I didn't really like the companies that I worked with, the clients that I had, and what they were trying to do in the world. Maybe, you know, producing bad food for the world, or producing stuff with too much sugar and selling it to kids. And that is when I started to wonder, you know, particularly around the end of the last recession, what kind of company and what kind of projects that I want to get involved in. And so those conflicts were what created the space for me to explore new paths. And it took, you know, takes a long time to clear that out of your system and try to make everything aligned. So that probably that process took quite a number of years to start slowly shedding that skin and being less associated with the projects that I might have previously been associated with that I less believe in now. And you know, then eventually, you get to a point where you're starting to make decisions about new things that you're going to get involved in and if you got that compass. Then when you make those decisions, you're hopefully making the right ones. And so they start to stack up in front of you. And I think that's where I am now. You know, I try not to take on or participate in things that I don't think will sit well. But it's not something I think you can just do overnight. It takes a while to build those muscles, and to clean out anything that's, you know, kind of in the closet that you don't want to be involved with anymore.
Elizabeth Gapes 9:05
Yeah, and Derek, I think maybe this is a good time to speak more about the Aera foundation and Aera VC that is now your embodiment of your internal compass and leading you and your clients, in the direction that you want to head. Can you share with us about the process of setting up the foundation and how this has moved into your venture capital fund that you're raising now?
Derek Handley 9:33
Yeah, so my wife and I set up the foundation about six, seven years ago. So it was a few years after I'd had my first kind of exit. And it was very vague, like we didn't know what we wanted to do in terms of strictly like, well, how exactly is this going to work? And we didn't know we're going to call it, we just knew we weren't going to call it The Handley Foundation. And we decided that we would go through the process of articulating what's the word that describes what we want to deal with. And we ended up calling it Aera, which was the result of me, looking for words that would represent the ethos of something today, but it would also represent the same ethos in 100 years, 500 years. And Aera is a very simple word. It's essentially the Latin root word for era, which is of our time, of our generation.
And so we wanted the foundation to participate in things that were of the questions of the day of the questions of our time. And we would treat it like a studio. So it would be less like a philanthropic grant giver, and more like a studio that would design new things, it would incubate them, and it would grow them to a point where they were self-sufficient. But at that point, they will also be paying back and rewarding the foundation with, you know, financial and other impact capital, and outcomes that it could then recycle.
And we looked at lots of different ideas and lots of projects that we thought were systemic, to the era systemic of our time. And one of the main ones, and I guess it's also a result of just my various activities that I had done in the past, was this transition to how we think about investing and how we think about building companies. And what's the point of them? Like, what's the point of building a company, if it's not to improve the state of the earth and improve the state of the world, particularly the face of the issues? What's the point of investing? And what's the point of having resources and capital? And so that eventually spawned Aera VC, which became, you know, a fund that invests in reversing climate change, sustainability, breakthroughs in health and frontier explorations for the world. And that became our first I guess, project that we've been underway for four years now, as a pilot in an effort that we backed about 20 different companies, and they're all pretty extraordinary. And now we're growing and, and you know, getting bigger.
Lieke 12:01
Yeah. And could you, for example, share something with us about an example of an investment, that investment that you've recently made that you're excited about?
Derek Handley 12:12
Yeah, there's plenty. We haven't made one yet in this space. But right now, we're really actively looking at companies that are trying to crack how to decarbonize concrete. So I don't know how many listeners realize that concrete is five to 8% of global greenhouse gas emissions, something like that. And, you know, everyone in China and African India is still building skyscrapers and bridges and motorways, and they all use concrete. So we're trying to find people who've created magic to figure out ways to develop concrete, but also do it in a way that really reduces or is negative Co2. So we've kind of looked for magical solutions that deal with intractable problems.
At the same time, we've backed a lot of companies in the future of food. A couple of weeks ago, we announced a company in Brisbane, Australia, which has developed a kind of meat alternative, like a very meaty pulled pork, beef briskety type meat, but it's made from mushrooms. And, you know, we love plant based foods, we love cell based food companies, we've invested in about six or seven of those. And think that, you know, huge, huge upside still to come.
One of my favorite companies is probably our first investment, you shouldn't have favorites. But of course, you kind of have to, our first investment was a climate investment in a company that when they first came to us said, we're going to make chemicals using plants, not petroleum and not fossil fuels. And again, it's kind of magical, because we've just come off the back of 100 years of everything we've built in the manmade world that's basically built off hydrocarbons and petrochemicals, you have a sorry, and fossil fuels, you have all these amazing entrepreneurs that are saying actually we can build this in a different way. So Solugen makes all sorts of chemicals, but has found ways to make them using biology and plants instead of using fossil fuels. And so we love that company for many reasons, not least that it was our first investment.
Elizabeth Gapes 14:26
Derek I read in the news, I think it was this week or last week there's a company in Poland who is making their concrete smell like flowers for the benefit of their workers. So when your quest to find a decarbonisation of concrete, maybe you can maybe even work with Solugen to incorporate some flower smells into the concrete that would be really great.
Derek Handley 14:49
That's quite amazing. It's got that's quite funny because what about if people don't like the smell of it? What if some people like it, some people don't?
Elizabeth Gapes 15:00
Just as long as it doesn’t smell like coriander and then, I think we've got more of a chance of people liking it. And I'm so curious to hear. I also read about the meatless investment that you've made. Have you tried the mushroom meat label? Is it really like meat?
Derek Handley 15:15
Yeah, I've got a whole stack of it in my fridge. Well, it's not meant to mimic 100%. You know, they're not trying to be like a, like a cell based company, for example, is literally trying to mimic it identically, what you're trying to do is get a similar texture, a similar visual appeal, or that kind of stuff. And for me, you know, I've used it in lots of different dishes in the last few weeks. And, yeah, I find that it really does replicate in a lot of situations. What, what you'd be after, so I found it really, really awesome. And I'm just, you know, a pretty average home chef. I've had it in a burger, you know, at a bar in Brisbane, and it was amazing. So I'm really excited.
Elizabeth Gapes 16:00
And how do you think that's placed for, I guess, a company in a country like New Zealand or Australia that really prides themselves on meat? I myself come from New Zealand. So I can say that, do you expect the target market or even the meatless meat trend to be a little bit slower down under or how do you see it, or also Fable's founders see it for the rollout across the globe?
Derek Handley 16:01
Well, I think Fable's main focus will be international just for scale. And you know, you have a certain amount of time that you need to assert your dominance as a particular niche that you're trying to occupy. I think in certain countries, you have, well, many countries, you have a generation that is older that may never decide to change or expand or broaden a palette. But I think there are certain significant generations, I think millennials on downwards kind of thing, that are all questioning a number of things, in terms of the way we consume. And meat is a big part of that is lots of different reasons to eat less meat, not just the climate and environmental issues. There's also animal rights, tissues, there's health issues, there's all sorts of things. But there's a number of forces that make that transition inevitable, where alternatives become a much larger piece of the pie. And that's, I think, what you know, where the winds are blowing, the same kind of thing is happening in alcohol, where you know, there's lots of new categories being created, which are like alcohol, but not alcohol, and people drinking less, a lot less than our parents' generation, for example, are not drinking at all. So these things are changing at different rates, depending on where you are in the world, and what the problem is that people are trying to avoid or attract themselves to. And I think all these things are just inevitable. They're not really questions in my mind, they're just a question of time.
Elizabeth Gapes 18:09
And I think, Derek, when you see it, you know, the winds are changing, and it's a matter of time. So if you speak more, you take it to the fund level, and the investors, you know, that have decided to come into the fund. Have you been educating a lot of people on what you're doing? Have you found that the conversations have changed in the last four years that people understand impact? And they want to diversify their capital by putting money into it? Or do you see more mission based investors?
Derek Handley 18:41
Yeah, so if you think if we started investing in 2017, it means we probably started talking to investors, at least initially, in 2015 - 2016, it was very, very difficult, in terms of the conversation was very simplistic, very hard to push forward, very much very critical around what kind of returns you might have by investing in trying to fix problems in the world. And, you know, you mentioned the thing I built with Richard Branson, which was not a company, that was a nonprofit, it's an alliance of CEOs who were having the same conversation back in 2011. Like, how do we use our global corporations to really make a difference on sustainability? And how do we create an actually truly sustainability focused giant corporation, and back then in 2011 12, was kind of similar, like it was tough to have that conversation. It was unusual for a CEO to have that conversation. And fast forward 10 years or nine years. If you're not having that conversation. If you're not leading with that conversation as a CEO, in the big corporate world, you're definitely an outlier. And if you're not quite understanding it, you're definitely probably on the way out, and especially with climate. So when it comes to the investing side, you know, as a fund, you look at LPs you're trying to get families to invest and be a part of the journey. I think in the last three to four years, that has changed quite a lot, especially with, you know, they might have a younger member of the family that's getting more active in the investment activities, and they have different views on the world. And they definitely want to invest in sustainability in the future. But they also believe that its returns will be found there. So I think a lot of it's accelerated very quickly. I think climate as a theme has accelerated, like, white hot in the last 12 months with maybe it's Biden, maybe it's a bunch of other stuff. But that's really picking up as well, maybe it's you're just seeing this next wave of entrepreneurs make progress, make traction, hit revenue. And at this point, I can't see this slowing down for, you know, for quite a long time, their renewed and accelerated interest across the board.
Lieke 20:55
Yeah, yeah. And from our side as well, you know, as placement agents, we see more and more LPs and family offices being interested in the impact space, the sustainability space. And also, in the last couple of years, many new impact funds have started to pop up globally, some from more emerging fund managers and other from more larger players. So what is your take on the development of this space? And how do you position Aera's investment thesis in relation to some of these other funds?
Derek Handley 21:30
Well, yeah, when we first started playing around with what we're trying to do and talking to people, I think we did identify as an impact fund, I created a social term sheet that was a part of our investing. What do you call it? Deal, like if we were going to invest in you, you'd have to sign this social term sheet, which also kind of embodied and articulated a certain number, it was about three key things that you were committing to, in terms of an impact approach. One was around like, you know, embedding impact into the mission, like becoming a B Corp, or a benefit Corp, something like that. Another was around defining what you're going to measure, like what you're going to measure in terms of your change and the impact you're going to have. And so we started off on that end of the spectrum. And then within about 18 months, or two years, we ditched all of that stuff. And we kind of took all our impact clothes off. And we just like said, this is, this is not what we are, we're just a fund that is going to invest in the most inspiring, amazing entrepreneurs who are going to be working on massive problems that we need to solve. But they're also going to be working on building multibillion dollar markets, and companies.
And so in the end, we don't talk about impact at all, as a self description, we're basically a venture fund that's investing in the future. And that future has to be sustainable. So to us, they're all one on the same thing, the next 2 billion 100 billion trillion dollar companies, those will be companies that solve these sustainability challenges. So we're just investing in them. You know the impact space and the language and the variety of funds involved in it. It's just such a jungle because everyone has a different definition of it. What does impact mean, how do you measure it? What's an impact fund, what's not an impact fund. And so we just decided to kind of step aside from it and say, actually, we're just investing in the very best in the world. And the ones who want to make the biggest difference and the biggest companies I think the impact investing space will continue to have its own names and brands and ways of thinking about it. But if I'm critical of it, I think it can get caught up in its own circle, its own lexicon, its own jargon, to the detriment of the overall, you know, the overall intent that they're trying to have.
Elizabeth Gapes 24:05
And I think, you know, Derek, you say you need to follow your internal compass, you know, you don't want to follow things just because they become cool. So, you don't want to get wrapped up too much in your own bubble. For sure. I do wonder, though, you know, you speak about, you know, you just invest and this is what you are, but I'm curious to hear about your your view on how you internally measure it success or have you decided in your fund documentation, you know, you may not look at your, your GPs or your your companies that way, but how do you, yourself measure success for Aera VC?
Derek Handley 24:47
Yeah, so it's an interesting question. If you think about it within the broader context of sustainability and what you measure and what kind of impact you're having, etc. Obviously for us, we choose companies that are making a big difference that are solving a big problem whether it's a carbon related problem or, or environmental problem or some other problem. For us, financial returns are really important because they prove that the company is solving a real problem that someone is willing to pay to solve. And that means they can grow. And they can be big and successful. And so for us, the more successful a company is, financially, if they're solving the right problem, the more they're making a difference in the problem. So as an early emerging manager, it's critical that we prove that our investment thesis is successful. So we're investing in these guys and girls that are solving important meaningful problems that we all agree, well, can they turn $1 into 100, which then proves to everyone else that this is where we should be investing as a collective, we should all be investing in behind these kinds of founders. So financial performance has to be really high up there as a fund, obviously. And thankfully, for us, it's going really well.
I think, as an organization, we are now evolving and evaluating. Okay, well, what is the collective measurable impact of the portfolio companies? How might you think about that? And how might you measure it, I think that's the journey that we're on now. We kind of over-thought it before we started, like I mentioned, we had that social term sheet, we asked people to tell us what they were going to measure. And the reality is, unless you're dealing really purely with something like carbon, it's quite hard to figure out when you're just a two or three person company, exactly what you're going to end up measuring, to figure out whether you're making a difference on your, the impact sustainability issues that you might have. And so certainly, for us, as a fund, we just started to determine now how you might collectivise that outcome that you're trying to achieve. And I think it's something you continue to evolve. But a fund, you know, which might seem strange to some people, is also a company. So you have a company, you have a culture, you have staff, you have people. And in any company, you should be measuring how happy your people are, how much they enjoy, what they're doing, how much they're growing. And like any other kind of startup, those things should and would become important as you grow.
Lieke 27:22
Yeah. And to link to that, Derek, you say it's important that people keep developing, even if they're happy in their job. You've also, as we've learned, developed yourself a lot. You're an entrepreneur, you're a GP Aera, you're a podcast host, you're a student of religion, and you're also an astronaut in waiting. What does this mean to you? And why is this something that you've put a lot of resources into?
Derek Handley 27:48
Well, it's lots of different things. But it really is just at the beginning, you know, this is an adventure that Virgin Galactic has been on. I can never quite remember how many years it is, 15 years, or 17, it's a really long time. When I first read about it, you know, I was still in the middle of building my first company. And I set it in my mind that if and when I could get to the point where I could sign up for that, that I would want to do that. And it kind of goes all the way back to when I was about my son's age. Like, I was nine. And I did my first project at school that I can remember where you kind of decide the topic that you want to go into, and you know, you produce a whole great big, like report and pictures and everything. And I chose space. And I remember that, from that moment, becoming very, very interested and fascinated by space. And then when I was early in high school, you know, maybe 12 or something, I had another project this time I was given it, and it was Kennedy. And I learned a lot and got very interested in being inspired by JFK, also, you know, Bobby Kennedy as well. But JFK in his mission, and his address at Rice University about going to space, and just the audaciousness of it all, really just captured and inspired me as a, you know, eight to 12 year old. So that stuck with me for a very long time. And that's really, if that was the end of my answer. I think that would be enough. That's why I chose to be a part of this to be a part of this frontier of people who are embarking on this great adventure that we're all on, you know, within the next 10-20-30-50 years. What does all this mean? It's not known. It's unclear what will come from all of this. But I don't think anyone knew when the Wright brothers were starting to fly. Or the Kiwi guys who were also flying a machine that no one remembers, that they apparently flew before the Wright brothers. When those people were doing those things. They weren't clear or they weren't sure where that was going to go either. And I don't think we can imagine the world without what has happened with flight. Not that it's all good. Some of it is bad, obviously. And I think there'll be the same, you know, when I've got, you know, when I'm 80 or whatever, looking back what has opened up through this new frontier? And the second second space? Renaissance?
Lieke 30:19
Yep, I think that's a great way to round this off. And is there any date set already for your trip to space? or anywhere?
Derek Handley 30:28
Well, I think, you know, everyone knows that. Well, not everyone, but um, some most people would have seen that Richard and Bezos did their things last month, or in July anyway. 2021. And I think that was basically like the marker in the sand saying, okay, we're almost ready for business. So I've been waiting since 2009. I don't ever think a date is, you know, I don't even think about it. I think whenever they call me, I'll be ready. But I reckon it'll probably be in a year or two, I guess. But I probably will get that wrong. But yeah, it'll be exciting. That's for sure. And I'm sure it'll be frightening too.
Part 2 Fire Round
Lieke 31:12
Yeah. Exciting, but frightening. Yeah. Great. Excellent. So yeah, thanks, Eric. This was the first part of the interview. And now we’ll move towards the second part, which is the fire round. So this is split into two parts. The first part is we’re going to ask you a couple of short questions, and we want you to answer just, you know, the first thing that comes to mind, you can also think about it quickly. Are you ready?
Derek Handley 31:41
Yeah, she’s like, giving a preamble. Like it’s a test.
Lieke 31:44
It’s easy. It’s easy. There are no wrong answers. Exactly. And what is your morning coffee order?
Derek Handley 31:51
Oh, I’m not really big on coffee order. But I’ll take a flat white.
Elizabeth Gapes 31:55
Nice, classic, classic New Zealand. Coffee order. All right. And Derek, if you could solve one problem in the world, what would it be?
Derek Handley 32:05
Oh, people’s happiness, just being able to live in happiness in themselves.
Lieke 32:12
Nice, and could you name three traits that make a successful GP in your eyes?
Derek Handley 32:20
Oh um, being able to spot, I think, where things are going and what problems are worth betting on? Being able to inspire and motivate people to invest in what you’re trying to pursue? And being able to decide which founders you think have what it takes to to build something extraordinary?
Elizabeth Gapes 32:49
And finally, what book are you currently reading?
Derek Handley 32:55
Oh, what book Am I currently reading? That’s a good question. I’ve got lots of them open at the moment. I’ve got this great, beautiful book called Wisdom, which is a big photo book, which I have opened kind of on my dresser and every day I can look at a different page, a different person. It’s got a whole wide variety but I’m also reading Yvon, the founder of Patagonia, “Let my people go surfing”. I’ve read it before. And every now and then I read it again. And so I’m reading that again. It’s a very beautiful book about how to build a company in a different way.
Elizabeth Gapes 33:30
Yeah, I concur. That is a great book. Okay, Derek, we’re going to now move on to just the last part. I’m going to mention a couple of topics and can you just tell us what you think only using the words overrated or underrated?
Underrated or Overrated
So my first question, or first topic is Twitter.
Derek Handley 33:50
Overrated
Elizabeth Gapes 33:52
Self driving cars?
Derek Handley 33:55
Underrated
Elizabeth Gapes 33:57
Avocados?
Derek Handley 33:59
Underrated
Elizabeth Gapes 34:01
Cryptocurrency?
Derek Handley 34:03
Underrated
Elizabeth Gapes 34:05
Jeff Bezos.
Derek Handley 34:08
Oh, pass.
Elizabeth Gapes 34:12
Alright. What about podcasts?
Derek Handley 34:16
Underrated.
Elizabeth Gapes 34:18
And self help books?
Derek Handley 34:21
Oh, mix, both.
Elizabeth Gapes 34:24
And finally, NASA.
Derek Handley 34:28
Oh, that's tough, underrated. I watched the documentary on Netflix Apollo. I mean, the one that's amazing. It's incredible.
Elizabeth Gapes 34:35
Alright. Okay, Derek, thank you so much for your time. today. We've really enjoyed speaking with you and learning about all the different facets of what makes up Derek Handley and Aera VC. So thanks again for your time. Thank you.
Derek Handley 34:49
Thanks for having me.